February 7th marked the Season 3 premiere of Franciscan TV’s popular discussion show, Friar Time. The show’s host, Fr. David Convertino, OFM, welcomed Fr. Bryan N. Massingale, PHD, for a timely and substantive discussion about Nationalism. Fr. Bryan is a James & Nancy Buckman Chair in Applied Christian Ethics, a Senior Fellow at the Center for Ethics Education, and a Professor of Theology and Social Ethics at Fordham University.
He is also a priest and a prophetic voice on issues of race, justice, and Catholic identity. His work calls the Church to examine not only what we believe—but how those beliefs are lived, defended, and sometimes distorted.
“Across our nation and our churches,” began Fr. David, “we’re hearing Christian language used in ways that divide us rather than heal us, exclude some rather than welcome all, and harden hearts rather than soften them.
What happens when faith becomes confused with nationalism? What happens when loyalty to race, culture, or political identity begins to rival our loyalty to the Gospel?
In a polarized culture, Christian faith is increasingly wrapped in national, racial, and ideological identities. Sometimes it’s subtle. Sometimes it’s loud.
Friends, this is not a conversation about politics. It’s a conversation about discipleship.
This is Friar Time, let’s start talking! To begin, it would be helpful to define our terms because some of this is a little nebulous in our society. Fr. Bryan, how would you define white nationalism, evangelical Christianity, and evangelical Catholicism?”
“Let’s break them down one by one,” replied Fr. Bryan. “By white nationalism, I define it this way: it’s the non-rational, instinctual, visceral conviction that some have that this country, that America, its public places, its institutions, its history, that these belong to white people in a way that they do not and should not belong to others.
So, by white nationalism, we mean that instinctual, visceral, non-rational conviction that there should be a fusion between a particular kind of Christianity and American identity.
Now, by a particular kind of Christianity, I mean by a Christianity that privileges whiteness, that privileges male leadership, that privileges heterosexual identity, that the country should belong to and be led by white Christian male heterosexuals, that they should have a preferred place in our country and a preferred place in our government. That’s white nationalism, white Christian nationalism.
Evangelicalism is a huge word, too, but I think we need to break it apart.
It can mean maybe one of three things. One, we always use ‘evangelical’ to refer to the following of the gospel. So, for example, friars profess the evangelical counsels: poverty, chastity, and obedience. It means that you’re following Christ. In my classes at Fordham University, I often tell my students that in the United States and our history, white is not simply a skin color. White is a social status. White connotes belonging to a status of advantage, of privilege, of preference. And not all white people who look white have the social status of whiteness. In our country, for example, some groups were white but then lost their white status.
For example, Mexican Americans, up until the 1930s, were considered white. After 1930, they lost their white status. Greek Americans, when they first came to the United States, weren’t white. They became white in the 1940s census,” said Fr. Bryan, noticing Fr. David’s puzzled expression.
“So, you’re looking kind of quizzical at me, as most people do, because we think that white means what’s visible,” continued Fr. Bryan. “No, white is a shorthand for belonging to a group that’s acknowledged to have certain privilege or preference. And so there are certain kinds of white people whom white Christian nationalists do not support, do not prefer. In fact, they denigrate.
For example, LGBTQ persons are not white, or as I tell my gay friends, ‘you’re not white enough.’ And so, by white Christian nationalism, we mean a society, a worldview, an ideology that wants to fuse a particular interpretation of Christianity with American identity, one that privileges and allows for the hegemony, the rule of white Christian heterosexual men. They are the ones who have the privileged place in American society, and American society was ordained so that they would lead, so that they would rule, so that they would have dominance.”
“Would you say you see certain strands of white nationalism misusing Christian language then or biblical imagery to kind of justify this exclusion of people or superiority?” asked Fr. David.
“Absolutely,” answered Fr. Bryan. “And here we have to talk about some terrible things that are happening even now as we speak. For example, there is a recruitment video for ICE, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement arm of the Department of Homeland Security. In this video, they show militarized ICE agents hunting down immigrants using night goggles. And over these images of ICE agents, you hear someone using the words of the prophet Isaiah:
I said, Who will send me? Who will go on our behalf?
And the voice responds, Here I am, send me.
So, you get this idea that God, the divine, is baptizing the work of these militarized white men who are hunting down immigrants. This is being used as a recruitment vehicle so that when you join to defend the homeland, which is the tagline being used, you’re not only defending the homeland of America, but you’re also doing the work of God.
In this country, the bishop spent millions of dollars on the Eucharistic revival to convince people of the importance of the Eucharist in our Catholic life. But for me, the acid test for American Catholics is not whether we believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus. The acid test is whether we believe that black and brown bodies are the body of Christ, the presence of Christ. Because if we do believe that, then that’s going to affect how we show up for one another in our country.
It moves me where in many places Catholics are now going shopping for immigrant families who are afraid to leave their homes, trying to be of concrete service to them, and they’re trying to escort them when they show up for their required legal appointments or court appointments. They’re trying to show up and even put their bodies on the line.
I think that’s what it means to be the body of Christ. That the body of Christ isn’t something we stare at when we’re at church.
The body of Christ is us. We are Christ’s body. And so how then do we live that in a time of polarization?”
“Thank you, Fr. Bryan, for your concise and focused insights on nationalism and its effect on our society and church,” said Fr. David, turning toward the camera. “Friends, tonight we were reminded that faith is never neutral, and silence is never harmless. Fr. Bryan reminds us that the Church’s credibility does not come from power or dominance—but from humility, repentance, and the courage to stand with those pushed to the margins. Christ is our first allegiance, and our life should be always focused on His love, mercy, and truth.”
This transcript comes from just 9 minutes of the 44-minute season 3 premiere of Friar Time.
See the entirety of Fr. David and Fr. Bryan’s conversation about Nationalism at: tv.FranciscanFriarsCharities.org